[HamWAN PSDR] Site details?

Sat Mar 18 16:45:35 PDT 2023

Yes, but will it see the sector node antenna 28mi away?  Or at least the 
comm site location over the ground horizon?

On March 18, 2023 12:31:55 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick at explodinglemur.org> wrote:

> Installing a tower just to climb it and peer through a telescope 
> seems...impractical :) I discovered last night while poking around that my 
> quadcopter has a panoramic photo mode where it'll yaw in place and snap 
> pictures and stitch them together. I can launch it to 30' AGL and then take 
> panoramic shots every 5-10' to see what exactly is visible at each level.
>
>> On Mar 17, 2023, at 23:00, Stephen Kangas <stephen at kangas.com> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> I ditto the point that you must see line of sight to connect at this 6GHz 
>> connection frequency reliably.  Use a telescope if needed. If you have a 
>> single tree in the way, not worth investing $$ on the equipment. I had to 
>> dodge a single cedar tree.by mounting my dish on a 6ft mast on the 
>> Ridgeline of my house at a single specific location.
>>
>> IF you're on flat land or a boat on the sea, it's 13mi to rhe Horizon.  If 
>> the Tx antenna is on a tower above ground it helps extend that distance.  
>> If the tower is on a mountain it helps.  Same for Rx antenna.  But you're 
>> talking 28mi, more than twice that flat distance to the horizon. It's 
>> possible, based on relative height AGL on both ends, but if there's no 
>> *VISIBLE* LOS, I would not blindly place my money on that craps table 
>> number no matter what topo RF software says.  The beam width is so wide at 
>> that distance that 30deg variance of the sector node from relative north 
>> bearings is not going to make much difference.  Borrow a telescope and 
>> sight it on a clear day like I did.  Which is another matter, as I've seen 
>> signal degrade with weather just a couple miles away from a sector node, 
>> imagine 28mi with rain.  If you can't see it for the trees, install a tower 
>> and repeat the telescope sighting from its top.  If you still can't see it, 
>> figure out a way for you or the HamWAN folks into installing another sector 
>> node on a hill top closer to you, as everyone wants to expand the network.
>>
>> Stephen W9SK
>>
>>> On March 17, 2023 5:34:59 PM "Nick Kartsioukas" <nick at explodinglemur.org> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I can see nothing from my roof.  From my original mail, "For example it 
>>> looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not 
>>> sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much 
>>> closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees." 
>>>  Local terrain and trees are a challenge here which is why I want to gather 
>>> and simulate as much as I can before I try to do something that a 
>>> simulation would rule out.
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 22:17, Tom Hayward wrote:
>>>> I can appreciate the desire to play around with the mapping tools and
>>>> coverage models. I have done a lot of that myself.
>>>>
>>>> We've found that the most reliable predictor of coverage, aside from an
>>>> RF survey, is a pair of binoculars. Can you see the tower while
>>>> standing on your roof?
>>>>
>>>> Tom KD7LXL
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 21:17 Nick Kartsioukas <nick at explodinglemur.org> wrote:
>>>>> Because I enjoy playing around with radio coverage mapping tools and want 
>>>>> to have the closest representation of reality?
>>>>> I'm in an exceptionally non-optimal area for PSDR, so I want to have as 
>>>>> much information as I can about required mast height and link budget for 
>>>>> each site before I go actually installing anything.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 15:45, Stephen Kangas wrote:
>>>>>> Nick, I'm not certain why precision matters here.  My experience
>>>>>> working with Bart & Doug assisting them putting up the Rattlesnake Mtn
>>>>>> sector is that they may deviate from the exact bearing only to provide
>>>>>> better coverage to the area below, avoiding obstacles and focusing on
>>>>>> the user community.  We're not talking really narrow beams here.  You
>>>>>> should be able to expect that if there is a sector antenna pointed to
>>>>>> your area that it is optimized for your chances of connection
>>>>>> regardless of how precise the sector antennas matches 0deg N bearing
>>>>>> offsets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FWIW, Stephen W9SK
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: PSDR <psdr-bounces at hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Carl Leon
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 3:16 PM
>>>>>> To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr at hamwan.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those are the standard. I think there is one single sector site where
>>>>>> that varies, but am not certain.
>>>>>> Carl, N7KUW
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: PSDR <psdr-bounces at hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Nick Kartsioukas
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 9:51 AM
>>>>>> To: psdr at hamwan.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, I phrased that part poorly.  Are all sectors aligned at
>>>>>> 0/120/240 when present, or do they deviate from those bearings?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 08:26, Doug Kingston wrote:
>>>>>>> Not all the cell sites have every sector.  If a cell site is on the
>>>>>>> side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we
>>>>>>> omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any
>>>>>>> useful purpose.
>>>>>>> We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the
>>>>>>> website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail.  If you have
>>>>>>> questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly
>>>>>>> (dpk at randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC
>>>>>>> channel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Doug-
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas
>>>>>>> <nick at explodinglemur.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna 
>>>>>>>> height info for some of them.  Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 
>>>>>>>> degrees relative to north?  Is there anywhere that has EIRP info?  I'm 
>>>>>>>> trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I 
>>>>>>>> can even make link for some of the sites.  For example it looks like I 
>>>>>>>> "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get 
>>>>>>>> connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd 
>>>>>>>> need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees.
>>>>>>>> At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data 
>>>>>>>> for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks!
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