[HamWAN PSDR] [Netops] WADNR and Amateur relationship

Fri Mar 24 14:25:17 PDT 2023

Since this thread is wondering off the stated purpose for this reflector,
I'd recommend Jamie and Stephen move things to a private discussion.

Thanks
Kenny

On Fri, Mar 24, 2023 at 2:17 PM Jamie Hughes <wa7jh at outlook.com> wrote:

> Stephen,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your response.
>
>
>
> Please see inline below in Blue if that will pass through.
>
>
>
> Please don’t excuse my attempt to present perspective as agreement with
> how things were handled. I didn’t get into the intricacies of government
> inconsistencies. I want to offer that we must tread graciously as we move
> forward.
>
>
>
> *Jamie Hughes*
>
> WA7JH
>
> Phone: (360) 340-8886 <+13603408886>
>
>
>
> *From:* PSDR <psdr-bounces at hamwan.org> *On Behalf Of * Stephen Kangas
> *Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 12:07 PM
> *To:* 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr at hamwan.org>; 'Rob Salsgiver' <
> rob at nr3o.com>
> *Cc:* netops at hamwan.org
> *Subject:* Re: [HamWAN PSDR] WADNR and Amateur relationship
>
>
>
> Jamie,
>
> It appears that you are not fully informed as to what took place leading
> up to WA DNR forcing amateur radio equipment off their land.  The picture
> you are painting here is very one-sided, and smacks of parroting what DNR
> is saying, not taking into account the experiences of hams who were unduly
> kicked off.  Publicly elected DNR Director Hillary Franz and DNR absolutely
> have blood on their hands, so to speak, and your attempts to quell that
> information and discussion here or anywhere else is at least unfair and at
> most censorship.  Of course, I am among many who welcome you to express
> your OPINION, one that is hopefully factually based, but it will help your
> reputation along with your effectiveness of swaying others by addressing
> the complete story.  Consider the following…
>
>
>
> I am informed. I get to be from a bunch of perspectives. I am aware there
> are inconsistencies throughout the organization there at the WADNR and I am
> not here to justify those at all. Let me offer the following. And yes, I am
> one sided on the matter and here is why. And it ain’t fair!!!
>
>    - They (WADNR) own the sites, access, and rates to their sites.
>    - We (us hams) broke the rules.
>    - Some paid for it.
>    - If we (you) don’t like it, feel free to find another site.
>
> As a taxpayer, I expect that each agency recover it’s costs as much as
> possible. Some sites cost more than others. Some sites have more value than
> others. I expect that those agencies exploit that to our tax paying benefit.
>
>
>
> Why I want to squash the bullshit insults. If we desire a to restore and
> retain a positive relationship with the WADNR, then we need to make every
> effort to be the better person. If we come across as sour then we are dead
> on arrival, period, end of story.  We have some very awesome people
> representing us to restore that relationship and just so you all know it
> ain’t me. While I think I’m a good PIO, like you, I want to call bullshit
> quickly which might not make friends. 😊
>
>
>
> There are indeed some hams that have gone beyond their annual payment
> deadlines, and some site owners not keeping DNR up to date on installed
> equipment nor passing along new DNR requirements to hams operating at their
> sites.  But there were just as many or more hams complying with the
> “published” DNR requirements at the time they were granted agreement to
> install their equipment, which of course is not free to hams given the
> large amount of installation costs involved, who were expelled.  Hillary
> was looking for any small loophole excuse that DNR could find to convert
> the low revenue stream from hams into a commercial rate pipe-dream to help
> make up for her shortfall of funding from the WA legislature’s approved
> budget.
>
>
>
> We agree, hams broke their rules. But then you offered something more
> interesting. WADNR kicked legally allowed (complying) users off. Please
> know that there are clauses that allow WADNR to “kick” us off if another
> opportunity comes along. If you know of anyone or you are one of those
> asked to leave and the WADNR did not pursue said opportunity, I need
> you/them to reach out to me directly. I will put you/them in contact with
> those people representing us. However, the blanket statement “just as many”
> that leads me to some assumed ambiguity that tells me there’s maybe some
> holes in the story. Again, some folks broke the rules, and this caused
> focus on us. I’m not suggesting that some complaint people got caught up in
> the drama unjustly, but I need those people to step forward privately so we
> can get your story captured and represented.
>
>
>
> Nearly all of us consumers pay annual, semi-annual, or monthly fees to
> service providers, whether that be a bank loan, magazine, whatever.  Do we
> get email or USPS letter reminders when approaching such payment
> deadlines?  Nearly always!  Did the WA DNR send out such reminders to
> hams?  NO.  I spoke with one **commercial** tower operator who said they
> did not receive such reminders either, so why are they still on DNR land
> unexpelled?  The point here is that it is unreasonable (1) to expect a ham
> subscriber to remember once per year that payment is due, especially when
> they are a volunteer who has no pecuniary/financial benefit from being on
> DNR land, some hams did remember, some hams did not, leading to (2) the
> loophole for DNR to throw the baby out with the bath water eliminating
> everyone else do to missed/late payments.
>
>
>
> I get your point but it’s not their responsibility. It’s called being an
> adult. And now I get to call BS.
>
> And now I get to dive into s*** that is off topic: Most commercial
> interests don’t lease “tower space” they lease WADNR land for which their
> building and tower reside. WADNR doesn’t want any of it, so they want to
> work with the building and tower owner to remain in good standing. Crown
> Castle, American Tower, all Vertical Bridge, all do this. Many of these
> have a fall back of a month to month with the annual contract expires.
>
>
>
> DNR previously had NO written/published policy and details about how many
> radios, tower equipment wind loading, and how many individual amateur radio
> operators or ham organizations could own equipment at a single DNR site up
> to this debacle.  When Hillary’s appointed project manager was directed to
> kick the hams out (which happened after her predecessor for comm site
> operations left DNR and who was very supportive of hams for emergency
> communications), there was all of a sudden a flurry of NEW requirements
> developed simultaneously to justify getting rid of more hams, including a
> limitation of a single radio/antenna at each site, new “safety” specs on
> tower wind loading, etc, that is now applied to towers/equipment not owned
> by DNR, instead owned by responsible third parties.  These NEW requirements
> were thrust upon hams suddenly with insufficient warning, therefore no time
> to modify/improve towers/etc.  The single radio requirement alone was
> enough to get rid of many hams sharing a tower site with other hams, in
> several cases sharing along with commercial gear.  Now, if the site
> owners/operators had knowledge of any such prior, or new, requirements,
> they would FIRST need to be notified by DNR AND urged to notify their
> downstream ham operators at the same site…did that happen?  NO, according
> to those site operators I’ve spoken to.  Again, the DNR intentions and
> resulting agenda is pretty clear, as the excuses invented to drive hams out
> have little to do with the greater plan of getting more DNR revenue from
> hams or correcting new “misuses” of DNR land.
>
>
>
> I want to ensure that understand the complaint(s) in full here.
>
>    - Safety - The claim is that a new person came in and that person
>    recognized that towers were out of compliance and maybe were unsafe and
>    that is going to justify what exactly? I mean, is the state supposed to
>    throw up their hands and put up a sign that says, it’s cool, it might fall
>    down , this sites not important. And when it falls and smashes the gear in
>    the shelter, or maybe it kills someone, then what, you’re good with it?
>    Just because someone else didn’t have time to follow up on tower
>    compliance, doesn't mean you get a pass. Just because one cop doesn’t pull
>    you over for speeding doesn’t mean another one won’t.
>    - They Hate Us - I think there is a misrepresentation here and this is
>    what I am after. And I want to dive into this way more. There is some
>    assumption that WADNR doesn’t like us hams or the services we offer. This
>    is false. Let me shed some light on this and let me be frank and straight
>    here. If someone breaks the rules and those rules are found in violation in
>    more than one location, then it starts to gain more attention. When you
>    learn that those rules are broken and it appears to be a systemic issue,
>    then you better believe someone’s irritated. That doesn’t mean they don’t
>    support the effort or your mission. It means they don’t trust you. And if
>    the service you offer comes with your name and your association with it,
>    then I don’t trust it, you, or them. This is what we are working to repair.
>    - And you better believe that we should be so lucky to still be
>    allowed what we are. I can’t speak to the history on this, but I remember
>    hearing (way back machine) there has been a limit of two per site for
>    years. Think I heard it from Jon Marsinco (Spelling)
>    - If it was clear that they hated us, then the current, in good
>    standing repeaters would be on their way out, but they aren’t. Again, see
>    above if you were incorrectly wronged, please reach out to me directly.
>
>
>
> Those of us who have exposure to the commercial telecommunications and
> radio industry know that the market for such higher elevation and remote
> communications sites has been in decline for several years.  5G wireless
> mobile is moving rapidly to lower elevation localized multiple stations due
> to its higher frequencies that are not suitable for high elevation or
> remote DNR land, and the shift away from longer wavelengths outside the
> military is steady.  Therefore, DNR’s hope to improve their revenues via
> commercial leases is a pipe dream.  The hope to convert ham subscriptions
> to commercial rates is also a pipe dream.  Neither is happening to any
> significant amount to date, and I predict it never will.  DNR is
> understandably woefully ignorant of the market forces at play here, their
> mission in life is non-commercial in nature managing natural resources and
> they don’t understand much of anything outside the lumber, fire-fighting,
> mineral interests that consume the vast majority of their internal
> resources and time.  Only the WA legislature can save DNR financially.
>
>
>
> Off topic
>
>
>
> In the meantime, the repercussions of WA DNR’s short-sighted move to
> pursue the letter of their new policies and agreements (ala your position
> of contract compliance) while sacrificing support for state, county, city
> emergency and public service communications preparedness and activations,
> along with the public benefit of individual amateur operators who also
> vote, should appropriately come back to bite them.  Our city has lost very
> valuable emergency communications infrastructure, so has our King County
> and other counties, Search And Rescue is impeded which in itself has the
> potential of affecting the safety of the firefighters that DNR will be
> deploying in coming summers into remote areas where volunteer ham repeaters
> and their volunteer 4X4 SAR hams are often the sole option for asset
> tracking, communications, and incident response.
>
>
>
> This is off topic.
> It assumes they don’t want us there. But you touched on another topic
> worth a quick shout out.
>
> Emergency Communications – This seems to be a major part of the amateur
> mission. We as amateurs do NOT hold the burden of ensuring our state, our
> counties, or our cities have emergency communications. I am all about
> supporting it or augmenting EMCOM, but we are not the end all be all of
> emergency communications.
>
>
>
> The buck always stops at the top of any organizational structure, as they
> are responsible for such actions that take place within.  I am doing my
> part as a concerned voting citizen helping those who are most affected by
> this debacle to know what happened and why, as I do hope that someday hams
> will once again be allowed to use those same DNR lands and the comm sites
> installed there per the original WA RCW mandate at the low lease cost that
> allows it…I’m not optimistic that even if that were to happen that hams
> will RE-spend the amount of time, labor, and money to replace their
> equipment back in place, considering the memory of history and how futile
> that can wind up being.
>
>
>
> Stephen, ME TOOOOOOOO.
>
>
>
> We have a choice. We can get all fired up, pissed off, and go all “ham,”
>  or we can choose to be kind and respectful and apologetic for our
> missteps. I’m not saying this hiccup doesn’t suck. We get to pay for the
> mistakes of others. We get to. If we get angry, then they simply shut it
> down and it’s done. If we go kindly with the support and willingness to
> work with them, I bet we are welcome with open arms as currently witnessed
> by the several repeaters and systems at DNR sites currently operating. I’m
> not asking any of you to be silent, I am asking that you understand their
> perspective, and go forward with kindness.
>
>
>
> All of us have some amazing, creative, and positive people working on our
> behalf in this effort. I want us to unite behind their efforts and stop
> making it sour. If you want to be angry at something, make sure that you
> and those you know abide by the rules. If that would have been done, we
> would not be here.
>
>
>
> Stephen W9SK
>
>
>
> Again, thank you,
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jamie
>
> WA7JH
>
>
>
> Stephen Kangas W9SK
>
> Public Information Officer
>
> North Bend Amateur Radio Emergency Services Team (NBAT) NB7AT
>
> North Bend, WA (CN97)
>
>
>
> NBAT is an all-volunteer non-profit serving the City of North Bend during
> emergencies and public service events.
>
> *When all else fails…Amateur Radio*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* PSDR <psdr-bounces at hamwan.org> *On Behalf Of *Jamie Hughes
> *Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 9:15 AM
> *To:* Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr at hamwan.org>; Rob Salsgiver <rob at nr3o.com
> >
> *Cc:* netops at hamwan.org
> *Subject:* [HamWAN PSDR] WADNR and Amateur relationship
>
>
>
> Hey everyone,
>
>
>
> Surrounding the WADNR and Amateur relationship I need to ask that those of
> you that believe that you/we have been wronged by the WADNR, please know
> that you/we have not!
>
> Please stop with any and all insults, digs, or alike towards them.
>
>
>
> *Your Impact*
>
> When you engage on this topic you are likely speaking out of turn and have
> no idea surrounding why you/we were impacted. Sure, it sucks to be asked to
> leave, but if I came to your house and moved in without paying rent, you to
> might get all bent out of shape. You might be cool if I moved in, paid rent
> for me, but when I invite all my friends to move in as well, then you might
> get angry. In short this is what happened.
>
>
>
> I had members of my own club engage with a local county commissioner that
> joined us for our breakfast meeting and dove into this asking for help but
> failed to understand the background. Just imagine how poorly this would
> have turned out if our Commissioner reached out to the WADNR and found out
> that people were complaining about access but then learning that we failed
> to comply with the contract.
>
>
>
> *Details*
>
> WADNR completed an audit and found several of their sites with equipment
> not captured in legal contracts. They did not single out amateurs as apart
> of this effort. Those amateurs that breached their contracts had a couple
> of things happen.
>
>    - Their amateur discount was revoked.
>    - And they were offered to renegotiate their contracts but at the
>    commercial rate. Going from ~$80 a year ~$400 a month is a shocker.
>
> *Note: *Commercial sites charge based on floor space and tower location.
>
>
>
> There are several efforts underway to ensure we repair our relationship
> with WADNR. There are still several amateurs that have great relationships
> with WADNR. Please don’t f*** this up for them.
>
>
>
> If you still have concerns, you are welcome to reach out to me or the
> HamWAN leadership. Please know that all of us are trying to remain
> respectful of those that got caught and drug us into this drama. I would
> love to out those guys as I have a history with a few of them, but it
> doesn’t benefit the issue or our hobby to do so.
>
>
>
> 73 (Ham radio way of saying Best Regards),
>
>
>
> *Jamie Hughes*
>
> *WA7JH*
>
> *President / Public Information Officer / Repeater Committee Chair, KCARC*
>
> *Public Information Officer, ARRL – Western Washington Section*
>
> Email: president at kcarc.org
>
> Phone: (360) 340-8886 <+13603408886>
>
> *Kitsap County Amateur Radio Club*
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kcarc.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C74d32996e1eb4686314208db2c9b0e83%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638152816713691079%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=CzK3GYejS7NcfObirajV5cuF1M4Q%2FQ2cEoG3h82z0Qg%3D&reserved=0>
>
> PO Box 2268
>
> Silverdale, WA 98383
>
>
>
>
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kc7z.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C74d32996e1eb4686314208db2c9b0e83%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638152816713691079%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MRF0MNlF%2FKZVTo1nagpCJp5dOiEv9QYJiG9Y2G%2BbOMk%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FKCARC_KC7Z&data=05%7C01%7C%7C74d32996e1eb4686314208db2c9b0e83%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638152816713691079%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QxH8wNRrFJGzxolKgvycj2bwxa2pWdllMtBnUlXT%2B1w%3D&reserved=0>
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fkitsaparc%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C74d32996e1eb4686314208db2c9b0e83%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638152816713847299%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=z4wZHqWqsBkRuigXXC1563CeTvMxMuXFBlh8dCi384k%3D&reserved=0>
>
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.instagram.com%2Fkcarc_kc7z%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C74d32996e1eb4686314208db2c9b0e83%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638152816713847299%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=seJZpUcTZTj%2FHa4uWlZT%2FUOlPCEQmqnAqJBZg57%2Fek0%3D&reserved=0>
>
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fchannel%2FUCc-6bwlaDGhoM4MnnDSvGnA&data=05%7C01%7C%7C74d32996e1eb4686314208db2c9b0e83%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638152816713847299%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4v6DqoGJp63WF5nEly46CC3%2BCQuQsmZTbdkuKZdOP%2BU%3D&reserved=0>
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fcompany%2Fkc7z%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C74d32996e1eb4686314208db2c9b0e83%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638152816713847299%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=e9dKqDe%2F%2FMH7TYsyjdr%2BH7%2FEcTuE%2B%2BVe1UmqEo3VbbQ%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsmile.amazon.com%2Fref%3Dsmi_ext_ch_80-0589655_dl%3F_encoding%3DUTF8%26ein%3D80-0589655%26ref_%3Dsmi_chpf_redirect%26ref_%3Dsmi_ext_ch_80-0589655_cl&data=05%7C01%7C%7C74d32996e1eb4686314208db2c9b0e83%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638152816713847299%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yFx%2F36DB09fbPgL8isZ3tPeHFY9y8waPuUbuH4Xk9c8%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netops mailing list
> Netops at hamwan.org
> https://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/mailman/listinfo/netops
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/pipermail/psdr/attachments/20230324/e71995ce/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.png
Type: image/png
Size: 75742 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/pipermail/psdr/attachments/20230324/e71995ce/attachment.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image002.png
Type: image/png
Size: 1555 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/pipermail/psdr/attachments/20230324/e71995ce/attachment-0001.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image003.png
Type: image/png
Size: 1394 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/pipermail/psdr/attachments/20230324/e71995ce/attachment-0002.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image004.png
Type: image/png
Size: 1895 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/pipermail/psdr/attachments/20230324/e71995ce/attachment-0003.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image005.png
Type: image/png
Size: 1797 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/pipermail/psdr/attachments/20230324/e71995ce/attachment-0004.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image006.png
Type: image/png
Size: 1609 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/pipermail/psdr/attachments/20230324/e71995ce/attachment-0005.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image007.png
Type: image/png
Size: 8079 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail01.fmt.hamwan.net/pipermail/psdr/attachments/20230324/e71995ce/attachment-0006.png>