[HamWAN PSDR] Site details?

Sat Mar 18 21:12:43 PDT 2023

Hamwan works great for me @ 24 mile trip one way, Issaquah to Haystack. 4mb
See for yourself. This website is hosted across the connection. http://wf7u.net
I’ll have to try looking for haystack with a telescope, couldn’t see it with binoculars that far away.
________________________________
From: PSDR <psdr-bounces at hamwan.org> on behalf of Stephen Kangas <stephen at kangas.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2023 4:45:35 PM
To: Nick Kartsioukas <nick at explodinglemur.org>
Cc: Puget Sound Data Ring <psdr at hamwan.org>
Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?

Yes, but will it see the sector node antenna 28mi away?  Or at least the comm site location over the ground horizon?

On March 18, 2023 12:31:55 PM Nick Kartsioukas <nick at explodinglemur.org> wrote:

Installing a tower just to climb it and peer through a telescope seems...impractical :) I discovered last night while poking around that my quadcopter has a panoramic photo mode where it'll yaw in place and snap pictures and stitch them together. I can launch it to 30' AGL and then take panoramic shots every 5-10' to see what exactly is visible at each level.

On Mar 17, 2023, at 23:00, Stephen Kangas <stephen at kangas.com> wrote:

I ditto the point that you must see line of sight to connect at this 6GHz connection frequency reliably.  Use a telescope if needed. If you have a single tree in the way, not worth investing $$ on the equipment. I had to dodge a single cedar tree.by mounting my dish on a 6ft mast on the Ridgeline of my house at a single specific location.

IF you're on flat land or a boat on the sea, it's 13mi to rhe Horizon.  If the Tx antenna is on a tower above ground it helps extend that distance.  If the tower is on a mountain it helps.  Same for Rx antenna.  But you're talking 28mi, more than twice that flat distance to the horizon. It's possible, based on relative height AGL on both ends, but if there's no *VISIBLE* LOS, I would not blindly place my money on that craps table number no matter what topo RF software says.  The beam width is so wide at that distance that 30deg variance of the sector node from relative north bearings is not going to make much difference.  Borrow a telescope and sight it on a clear day like I did.  Which is another matter, as I've seen signal degrade with weather just a couple miles away from a sector node, imagine 28mi with rain.  If you can't see it for the trees, install a tower and repeat the telescope sighting from its top.  If you still can't see it, figure out a way for you or the HamWAN folks into installing another sector node on a hill top closer to you, as everyone wants to expand the network.

Stephen W9SK

On March 17, 2023 5:34:59 PM "Nick Kartsioukas" <nick at explodinglemur.org> wrote:

I can see nothing from my roof.  From my original mail, "For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees."  Local terrain and trees are a challenge here which is why I want to gather and simulate as much as I can before I try to do something that a simulation would rule out.

On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 22:17, Tom Hayward wrote:
I can appreciate the desire to play around with the mapping tools and
coverage models. I have done a lot of that myself.

We've found that the most reliable predictor of coverage, aside from an
RF survey, is a pair of binoculars. Can you see the tower while
standing on your roof?

Tom KD7LXL

On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 21:17 Nick Kartsioukas <nick at explodinglemur.org> wrote:
Because I enjoy playing around with radio coverage mapping tools and want to have the closest representation of reality?
I'm in an exceptionally non-optimal area for PSDR, so I want to have as much information as I can about required mast height and link budget for each site before I go actually installing anything.

On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 15:45, Stephen Kangas wrote:
Nick, I'm not certain why precision matters here.  My experience
working with Bart & Doug assisting them putting up the Rattlesnake Mtn
sector is that they may deviate from the exact bearing only to provide
better coverage to the area below, avoiding obstacles and focusing on
the user community.  We're not talking really narrow beams here.  You
should be able to expect that if there is a sector antenna pointed to
your area that it is optimized for your chances of connection
regardless of how precise the sector antennas matches 0deg N bearing
offsets.

FWIW, Stephen W9SK

-----Original Message-----
From: PSDR <psdr-bounces at hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Carl Leon
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 3:16 PM
To: 'Puget Sound Data Ring' <psdr at hamwan.org>
Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?

Those are the standard. I think there is one single sector site where
that varies, but am not certain.
Carl, N7KUW

-----Original Message-----
From: PSDR <psdr-bounces at hamwan.org> On Behalf Of Nick Kartsioukas
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 9:51 AM
To: psdr at hamwan.org
Subject: Re: [HamWAN PSDR] Site details?

Sorry, I phrased that part poorly.  Are all sectors aligned at
0/120/240 when present, or do they deviate from those bearings?

On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, at 08:26, Doug Kingston wrote:
Not all the cell sites have every sector.  If a cell site is on the
side of a hill or has a large obstruction immediately adjacent, we
omit the sector facing into the obstruction as it would not serve any
useful purpose.
We have tried to depict the available sector in the map on the
website, but you may need to zoom in to see that detail.  If you have
questions about particular sites, Feel free to contact me directly
(dpk at randomnotes.org) or mail the netops@ list or ask on our IRC
channel.

-Doug-

On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 9:15 PM Nick Kartsioukas
<nick at explodinglemur.org> wrote:
I've been able to find location info for most of the PSDR sites and antenna height info for some of them.  Do they all have sectors pointing 0/120/240 degrees relative to north?  Is there anywhere that has EIRP info?  I'm trying to see how tall a mast I need to get connected, and whether or not I can even make link for some of the sites.  For example it looks like I "only" need a 35' mast for Baldi, but at 28mi away I'm not sure I can get connected reliably, vs Beacon or Capitol Park which are much closer but I'd need at least a 66' mast thanks to local terrain and trees.
At the moment I'm using https://ispdesign.ui.com/ (which now has LIDAR data for buildings/trees!) and have also used RadioMobile Deluxe in the past.

Thanks!
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